Cracking Your First Cacao Pod: A Monkey’s Joy | Food Talk × Daxiao Dianbo Vol. 26

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This episode of Food Talk marks our first crossover with a partner podcast, *Da Xiao Dian Bo*. We’ll join the show’s host Gu Si and regular guest Nan Shan to explore the imaginative and delicious world of fermented foods.

As the founder of the chocolate brand Qiaoli Ke, Nan Shan recently brought her chocolates to Foodthink’s Fermentation Lifestyle Festival market, where she connected with fellow fermented food artisans and enthusiasts.

While chocolate is ubiquitous, few realise it is fundamentally a fermented food. To illustrate how cocoa beans are transformed into true chocolate through a complex process, the hosts turned the recording studio into a tasting session. They cracked open a fresh cocoa pod, tasted raw cocoa beans for the first time, and pondered how fermentation reshapes the flavour of this remarkable fruit.

With her professional training, Nan Shan showed us what it means to “mindfully taste anything.” Even enjoying a simple orange becomes an exercise in focusing your palate and nose to fully appreciate its aroma and flavour. While most of us don’t need to memorise coffee or chocolate flavour wheels, adopting this attentive approach to eating brings a uniquely deep sense of satisfaction.

We also wandered off on several fermentation-related tangents: What peculiar fermented foods have cultures around the world invented? Why did the cheese-making process bring to mind Beijing specialties like *douzhi* and *ma doufu* for Gu Si? How do highly theoretical fermentation processes eventually bow to the realities of a local micro-environment? And what fascinating links exist between fermentation and agricultural practices? Microorganisms are constantly working their unseen magic.

Finally, Qiaoli Ke shared their latest ambition: cultivating cocoa pods in Hainan and exploring new possibilities for Chinese craft chocolate. Stay tuned for this episode, and join Foodthink on a fascinating journey into the world of fermented foods.

Episode Guests

Nan Shan

Regular guest on *Da Xiao Dian Bo*, founder of the chocolate brand Qiaoli Ke, an officially appointed “Peru Cocoa Ambassador” by the Peruvian Business Office, and a Q-grader certified in international coffee quality evaluation. Driven by a deep passion for gastronomy, she founded Da Xiao Coffee and Jin Specialty Coffee, which led her into the fascinating world of cocoa and chocolate. She hopes to share the terroir-driven flavours of bean-to-bar chocolate, conveying the unique character of the land to a wider audience.

 

 

 

Gu Si

Host of *Da Xiao Dian Bo*. Product manager. Coffee enthusiast (currently drinks more than he discusses); lover of boozy atmospheres (better at showing up than knowing the ins and outs); fan of *douzhi* and fermented pickles (curiosity spikes the heavier the fermentation); and a theoretical admirer of fruit vinegar who hasn’t yet started experimenting.

 

 

 

Episode Hosts

Wang Hao

Editor at Foodthink. A fermentation novice prone to abandoning projects midway.

 

 

 

 

Xiao Jing

Enjoys everything from Maltesers (now upgrading to real cocoa butter versions) to dark chocolate. A bread fermentation newcomer who delights in watching dough rise into a perfectly springy shape.

 

 

 

 

Timestamps

00:34 Nan Shan brings her chocolate brand Qiaoli Ke to the Fermentation Lifestyle Festival market. How was the experience?

02:00 Wait, chocolate and coffee are “fermented foods” too?

06:28 Crack! Opening a fresh cocoa pod on air. What does the pulp taste like?

10:35 How does a cocoa pod, which bears little resemblance to chocolate, undergo “fermentation” to become the raw ingredient for chocolate making?

17:05 Cocoa pods, honey, birch sap from the Changbai Mountains, tempeh… Once people realised fermentation enhances flavour, it seems almost anything gets a trial run.

23:16 Recommendations: Each host shares their favourite fermented find from the market.

29:31 Tired of watching “video snacks” while you eat? Try focusing entirely on the food itself.

32:43 Does chocolate have a flavour wheel like speciality coffee?

38:42 Home fermentation tips for beginners: you can actually make kombucha and mozzarella cheese yourself at home! We’ll walk you through the step-by-step recipes.

43:54 Fermentation disasters in the kitchen: why won’t bread rise when left next to kombucha? And why do perfectly good-looking pickles sometimes turn out so salty they taste bitter? We’ll get to the bottom of the science behind it all in this episode.

51:19 The author of *The Fermentation Bible*, a favourite among fermentation enthusiasts, visits China and discovers the country’s incredibly diverse range of fermented foods. What traditional ferments are special to your hometown?

52:26 Fermented foods were once dismissed as old-fashioned, overly pungent, unhealthy, and even unsanitary. So why do we still need them in our diets today?

54:42 A different kind of fermentation: composting. As *The Fermentation Bible* notes, microbes will keep forging ahead with or without us. Nature consists of animals, plants, and microorganisms; humans are just one member of this community. We owe it to ourselves to respect our microscopic “roommates”.

61:04 Qiaolike’s new mission: applying fresh fermentation insights to explore new possibilities for locally sourced Chinese chocolate in Hainan.

The complete process of chocolate making, with fermentation as the second step.
● Peru, 2019. Left image: The cacao tree flower, shaped like a delicate five-pointed star. A tiny blossom just 1 cm in diameter slowly matures into a fruit weighing over 500 g. Right image: A fresh cacao pod, its flesh enveloping the seeds like a mangosteen. The flavour is also reminiscent of mangosteen, but sweeter and more complex. Photo: Nan Shan

Hainan, 2020. Top image: Opening the pod after harvest to remove substandard beans, retaining only the mature ones. Bottom image: Cacao beans undergoing fermentation. Temperature serves as a key metric for monitoring the process; the centre of the crate heats up to between 45°C and 55°C, sufficient to deactivate the seeds. Acids generated during fermentation also eliminate certain pathogens. Photo: Nan Shan
Peru, 2019. Cross-section test to observe colour changes in the beans, a step guided largely by the fermenter’s own experience. The flavours developed during fermentation lay the foundation for the chocolate’s final profile. Photo: Nan Shan
Nan Shan at the fermentation market during the “Fermentation Awakening Festival”.
Cracking open a cacao pod brought straight from Hainan at the podcast recording studio.
Great food and drink, and a thoroughly enjoyable recording session!

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Podcast Production Team

Coordination & Production: Xiao Jing

Cover Art: Wan Lin

Music: Ba Nong

Editor: Wang Hao

Contact Email: xiaojing@foodthink.cn

Published by Foodthink