Exclusive Interview: Extraordinary Disasters Are Here, Yet We Are Still at the ‘Shennong Tasting a Hundred Herbs’ Stage
In early October, much of northern China was hit by record-breaking rainfall, unprecedented for this time of year. Amid citizens’ exclamations of “How much longer will this rain go on?” and “Have we really become the south?”, and as farmers stood helplessly before their crops submerged in mud and rot, bereft even of tears, we marked the 36th International Day for Disaster Risk Reduction.
The International Day for Disaster Risk Reduction on 13 October is a UN-designated commemorative day aimed at raising global awareness of disaster risk and preparedness. This year’s theme is “Invest in Resilience, Enhance Disaster Risk Reduction”, emphasising that priority must be given to preparedness before disaster strikes, rather than to remedial action after the fact.
This is common sense – if you know a disaster is coming, surely everyone would prepare in advance. The real question is: do we truly understand disasters? Disaster relief worker Hao Nan made a remark that sounds counterintuitive but rings true: “Our understanding of disaster impacts is still at the ‘Shennong tasting a hundred herbs’ stage – blind trial and error without any theoretical framework – and that is no exaggeration.”
His words are well-founded. Two months after the extraordinary rainstorm that struck Miyun, Beijing, and Xinglong, Hebei, and during this year’s National Day holiday, his organisation, Zhuoming Disaster Relief (hereinafter “Zhuoming”), led a team on a return visit to the disaster area, setting out from the severely damaged Taishitun and tracing the flood’s path in an attempt to reconstruct the entire course of the disaster.
To dissect a disaster the way a researcher dissects the mechanism by which a pathogen causes disease – reasoning both backward and forward through its occurrence and assessing risk – requires not only multidisciplinary professional analysis, but also, on a societal level, an examination of how different stakeholders understand the disaster and its impacts from their respective perspectives. Hao Nan believes this work has been conducted far from sufficiently. Moreover, as a result of climate change, extreme precipitation and floods exceeding design standards will increasingly become the norm. What should the way forward look like? We hope that the Zhuoming team’s experiences and uncertainties will reach a wider audience of those concerned with weather-related disasters.

I. The North Becomes the South: Townships and Villages Remain Forgotten
In the south, rivers in humid zones with high flood risk generally do not exhibit such extreme variability – thousands or even tens of thousands of cubic metres per second during the flood season, yet still two to three thousand in ordinary times, with the banks potentially flooding every few years. However, extraordinary floods with recurrence intervals exceeding 20 to 40 years are far harder to guard against – flood-fighting experience is difficult to pass down across generations.
The rise in extreme precipitation and floods exceeding design standards is also changing how the government operates. The “call-and-confirm” protocol has become the emergency management authorities’ primary task when responding to rainstorms and floods: once a red-level rainstorm alert is issued or a flood response activated, officials must phone down level by level to grassroots communities: “A heavy rainstorm is coming – evacuate residents in high-risk areas immediately!” The first time one encounters this, it is inevitably chaotic.
As climate change pushes the 400 mm isohyet northward, the probability of extreme precipitation triggering severe and catastrophic flash floods in mountain streams and flooding of small and medium-sized rivers will continue to rise in mountainous, stream-and-valley terrain between the 400 mm and 800 mm isohyets.
In August 2024, widespread rainstorm and flooding in Jianchang County, Huludao City and surrounding areas claimed at least 11 lives. A team leader who participated in both last year’s Huludao flood relief and this year’s Beijing–Chengde border flood response told me that in terms of type, scale and on-the-ground damage, the two disasters were remarkably similar.
Can we learn from these disaster areas? Can we recognise that such events could strike anyone, and then think about what to do?

Over the past decade and more, the trend of climate change driving more frequent disasters has become unmistakable. But it was not until the 2021 Henan “23·7” extraordinary rainstorm and flood (commonly referred to in the media as the “720 Extraordinary Rainstorm”) that society truly received its education. In the evening of 20 July, Zhengzhou’s urban area recorded 200 mm of rainfall in a single hour. The unprecedented downpour naturally triggered severe waterlogging almost immediately, and the news of more than a dozen citizens drowning in the metro ignited public outrage. Yet far more severe casualties, occurring at the same time or even earlier, remained virtually unknown to the public.
The officially announced death toll from Zhengzhou’s rainstorm and flooding was 380. Seventy per cent of those who died were from the mountainous and hilly county-level cities on Zhengzhou’s periphery, with deaths concentrated before 1 p.m. on 20 July. The vast majority perished in mountain flash floods, geological hazards, and flooding of small and medium-sized rivers; only about one in ten died from urban pluvial flooding. And yet virtually all of the public discourse focused exclusively on cases of urban pluvial flooding.
On the other side of the Yellow River, in Xinxiang City, the extremity of rainfall in the days surrounding “7·20” was no less severe than in Zhengzhou. The death toll was lower – this area is predominantly flat, water flows more slowly, and there was time to evacuate and rescue – but it was submerged in a vast sea of water. On satellite imagery, it looked like Poyang Lake even near its low-flow season, with villages turned into isolated islands. By our preliminary estimates, including Qixian and Xunxian counties downstream in Hebi through which the floodwaters flowed, nearly one million people were trapped by floodwaters; rescue teams evacuated at least 400,000 of them. At one point, Huixian alone – a county-level city in Xinxiang – required the full evacuation of all 200,000 of its residents.

Hao Nan: After all these years, some critical issues still go undiscussed – the hazard mechanisms and risk profiles of urban pluvial flooding are entirely different from those of mountain flash floods, geological hazards, and river flooding. The risk of fatal casualties from urban pluvial flooding is far lower than from mountain flash floods, geological hazards, and river flooding, and the long-term impacts of the latter are also far more profound. Even in Zhengzhou, with rainfall this extreme, standing water from urban pluvial flooding drained away within a day, yet villages and towns along downstream rivers were submerged in succession for over half a month.
Moreover, urban flooding is primarily rainwater, which is relatively simple to clear. Urban infrastructure is also restored within days, and residents do not typically lose their livelihoods. But torrential floodwaters carry vast quantities of sediment and debris, and wherever they pass, residents’ property is utterly destroyed.
In the extraordinary flood disaster in Qiandongnan Prefecture, Guizhou, this past June, the mud and debris left in Rongjiang town after the flood receded was one to two metres thick. More importantly, mountain floods devastate farmland, roads, and infrastructure. In the severely affected townships of Xinglong County, Hebei, which we visited this time, much of the basic farmland located in mountain gullies, as well as riverside fields and terraced orchards on hillsides, was washed away. Basic farmland destroyed by debris flows is extremely difficult to regenerate and requires formal declassification from the protected farmland quota. Farmers who lose land to disaster receive a certain subsidy, but the loss of livelihood is permanent.
Looking ahead, the trend of increasingly frequent mountain floods will not only continue but may well accelerate.

II. Promoting Disaster Risk Reduction: Who Can Afford Three Months of Drinking with Villagers?


Only the handful of organisations with long-term rural programmes can fit disaster prevention and mitigation in “as it were”. You can count them on the fingers of two hands, and they don’t necessarily understand disasters. Some organisations that are just about to start a community disaster-mitigation project will ask: Do you have PowerPoint slides? Is there a curriculum? But this is not a ready-made package you can pick up and use.
Take the act of evacuation, for instance: the goal is to move away from the hazard. But what are the properties of the risk sources in a community – a landslide, a rockfall, heavy rainfall upstream of a river – what are their dynamic mechanisms, where will the impact zone extend? Judging all this requires very specialised professional expertise. All these factors shape the timing of evacuation, the route chosen, and the contingency plan. Different disaster types demand different responses, basic community conditions vary enormously, and the various factors influencing residents’ “knowledge, belief, and action” make matters even more complex.
Many organisations are now starting to work on community climate adaptation, and they begin by assessing the community’s meteorological disaster risk. But everyone reports that this part is difficult to do. From my observation, it is very hard to integrate risk reduction or resilience improvement as a tangible project output.
Governments at all levels now place great emphasis on the protection of life and safety. Foundational work for dealing with meteorological disasters is pressed very rigorously, with responsibilities cascaded down through every tier. The meteorological, water resources, emergency management, Ministry of Natural Resources and other departments all require grassroots communities to implement disaster-avoidance measures in earnest. For example, in line with the Ministry of Natural Resources’ requirements, communities must implement “hazard point + risk zone” dual control for geological hazards, produce awareness instruction cards for geological-hazard prevention, and so on. In theory, rural communities are all supposed to set up publicly funded posts such as disaster information officers and geological-hazard risk monitors.

Hao Nan: But carrying this out is equally difficult. In rainstorm and flood disasters, the flash floods and debris flows at the hazard’s origin often arrive simultaneously with the warning itself, which is very different from what most contingency plans stipulate. Whether one can, in peacetime, devise measures that will genuinely solve problems when disaster strikes has become the dividing line for professional competence in community disaster-prevention projects. Sometimes, a community project can raise awareness, but the actual effectiveness in disaster prevention and mitigation is anyone’s guess.
An organisation once invited us to conduct a disaster risk assessment for a village. That village had a complex risk background, requiring three or four experts from different specialist fields to carry out on-site surveying and assessment. For example, identifying the front and rear edges of a potential landslide – its cracks and uplift being precursors of failure – estimating the geotechnical structure, understanding how thick and how large a mass of soil might slide, in which direction it would move, which households it would affect, and so forth. The budget for an assessment like that does not exceed 5,000 yuan, even at the most generous.
Although the sum is small, we are willing to take part in projects like that because they are genuinely useful – yet we have never had another opportunity.
There is another category of community disaster-capacity-building projects: they form part of the post-disaster recovery package and are almost always one-off. A friend recently went to Dingri County, Tibet, to run a community earthquake-resilience project. A magnitude 6.8 earthquake had struck the area earlier in the year, and project funding was available. These projects follow a uniform pattern: they are carried out only where a disaster has occurred, and only within a year of it. They are essentially a way of providing survivors with a sense of security and psychological reassurance. Two years later, no one in the locality wants to continue.
Projects that should belong to the pre-disaster phase can only be implemented after the event. Having to wait for a disaster to actually happen in order to identify high-risk communities is simply too costly.

III. Stones Rolling Down the Mountain: Louder than the Village Cadres’ Calls
The complex dynamics may not be fully explicable even to specialists. But in mountainous areas, when the rain is particularly intense, residents must be able to determine where the water is coming from – knowing whether the threat is a flash flood from the hill behind the house or floodwater in the river at the front door. That determines which direction holds the chance of survival.
Understanding flood dynamics is also crucial for rescue. This time, the Taishitun elderly care centre in Miyun was primarily inundated; water rose quickly but still took one to two hours, so residents had time to move to higher ground. Whereas at Liulimiao Town in Huairou, the village official swept away by the flash flood – that process may have lasted only seconds. There was simply no chance of rescue at the time.
So disaster prevention upstream of a flood source is far more difficult. It must rely on pre-disaster assessment to determine the rainfall threshold at which a flash flood becomes destructive in a small watershed – to know what rainfall intensity will cause converging flash floods to destroy where people live – and to set the trigger at which residents must evacuate. After all, by the time the rain has truly built up, the flash flood is imminent and evacuation time has already run out. In the mountains, floodwater outruns the red alert.
In many villages, survivors we met all described hearing what sounded like “thunder rolling through the mountains” – but it was not thunder; it was the roar of flash floods and debris flows thundering down the gullies. Beside houses demolished by landslides and debris flows, you can also hear a tremendous rushing sound and feel surging air blasts. These sounds are so loud that, when disaster strikes, they drown out the village cadres’ calls to evacuate.
This is why so many grassroots cadres have been killed or injured over the past two years – while everyone else flees, they head toward the danger. I even went to the site specifically to reconstruct the process by which a village Party secretary and his companion were swept away this time – how they stepped out of the village committee office, were knocked down by the surging mud-water cascading down, and were dragged step by step into the river channel…

In practice, it is the Ministry of Natural Resources that addresses geological hazards. In their classification, flash floods are typically subsumed under the integrated management of small watersheds in mountain areas and merged into geological hazards.
When we got to the local level, we found that in one township the Water Affairs Bureau was still conducting household-by-household disaster risk assessments. In my view, their routine remit covers only areas along the riverbanks; whether they can cover flash floods and geological hazards is questionable.
Those with flood-modelling capability do not manage small watersheds – they focus on the main river channel; those responsible for small-watershed hazards are not proficient in hydrology and hydraulics modelling. There are clearly institutional silos here that need to be broken down.

Hao Nan: But returning to the scientific question of how to determine evacuation timing, the problem emerges. The worst-affected areas in this rainstorm and flood used the water-level thresholds for floods with return periods of five, ten, and fifty years to decide whether to evacuate, in line with the water resources department’s flood-control response plans.
But a flood’s “return period” is an engineering design standard based on probability statistics. Using this as the criterion for human evacuation is often only applicable to the banks of the downstream river channel; upstream, it may have little reference value. This time, evacuations from river-channel flooding in Xinglong County were generally successful – convergence takes time, so residents typically had a several-hour evacuation window. The fatal events were mainly mountain flash floods, debris flows, and the like; they occur earlier, closer in time to the extreme precipitation itself, so evacuating as if it were channel flooding means running out of time.
The meteorological service’s short-term rainstorm warning has the same problem – red-level rainstorm alerts are generally issued at county level, indicating 100 mm or more of rainfall over three hours, or 50 mm or more over one hour, but they are hard to operationalise for evacuation decisions at the specific township or street level. Again, they are more relevant to downstream river flooding.
This time, Xinglong County issued a red-level rainstorm alert after 2 a.m., based on rainfall across the entire county – but between 1 a.m. and 2 a.m., rainfall at Yingnanyu Village in Shangshidong Township had already reached 91 mm in just one hour. At Zhazi Gully, further upstream of Yingnanyu, flash floods had begun rampaging around 1:30 a.m. The critical threshold I described earlier – more relevant for flash-flood warning than the county-level alert – the small-watershed rainfall threshold – had been exceeded before the red alert was issued.
So whether and when to evacuate, grassroots decision-makers largely still decide based on the actual situation on the ground. The professional expertise and resources available at the front line of disaster prevention and mitigation remain rather scarce.
Take Yangjiatai Village in Liudaohe Town, Xinglong County, Hebei, which was severely affected: flash floods and debris flows surged in from two directions almost simultaneously, completely sealing off all escape routes… This was also where geological hazards caused the highest number of casualties.
Xinglong County issued its red-level rainstorm alert at just past 2 a.m. The small watershed in which Yangjiatai Village sits did not actually experience the downpour until around 3 a.m. By four or five o’clock, the extremity of the rainfall had disrupted the geotechnical equilibrium at the high ridgeline. Multiple branch gullies upstream simultaneously erupted with flash floods and debris avalanches. A large share of the flow converged in front of Groups Four and Five of Yangjiatai Village, first sweeping away several houses and courtyard walls at the bottom of the gully; a smaller share converged into the flash-flood gully behind Group Four, from where it then razed most of the houses and fields in that group.

IV. Treating “Cavities”: You Need Research and Community Doctors Alike
From a societal perspective, if people do not understand how disasters occur and do not grasp a hazard’s “pathogenic mechanism”, they cannot effectively prevent and “treat” them. It is as though someone has researched the causes and treatments of “dental caries”, but no one does “public health” work to educate people and intervene in their health behaviours, and there are no “community doctors” to write prescriptions for individual patients – the “cavity” problem simply cannot be solved.
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Edited by: Ling Yu
